What kind of populist bullshit are you spreading now, Bryan?
"Antifa email"? Is Tor now an "Antifa anonymity service" as well? If they used openSUSE, would it be "Antifa Linux", too?
If they used Github to share code, would it make Github the "Antifa code platform"?
And since when do you trust the classification of the Department of Homeland Security und the Trump government, especially when it comes to an anti-fascist movement?
Have you ever talked to anybody from Antifa?
@Angle @colomar In the USA, Antifa is a group engaging in domestic terrorism. They actively promote themselves as such and the government classifies them that way as well. That's not even taking a political "side" on them... just stating facts that they, themselves, put out there. Pretty straight forward.
@mangeurdenuage True, but Mozilla has given money to RiseUp, not to Antifa.
If giving money to an organization which provides services that organizations classified as terrorists use is a crime, then everyone who financed Facebook, Twitter, Telegram, WhatsApp, and so many others would have a problem, too.
@colomar @Angle @BryanLunduke "The United States government" which you seem to hold in high regard also declared that no transgender people shall serve in the military and from what I hear are attacking voter rights and supporting some quite questionable figures.
So maybe take their opinion on ANTIFA with a grain of salt?
@BryanLunduke @Angle @colomar 'Antifa' isn't really a unified group. There are some folks in it who DO in fact advocate brawling in the streets in accord with, in their words, ‘Marxist-Leninist-Maoist Science’ but others adopt the label just to describe their protest activities. You could probably classify the street brawling advocates as something, but Id on't think they've actually /done/ that much to make them worth classifying.
I know that there are people in Antifa who condone violence against fascists. I strongly disagree with those people, because I consider myself a pacifist.
That these people exist does not make the whole movement (as you said, it's not even an organization as such) "terrorists".
God, this reminds me of that one time that the BBC caught wind of a handful of self-proclaimed ISIS acolytes hanging out on like two Diaspora servers. Headlines blared that ISIS joined Diaspora, Diaspora could not / would not stop ISIS, and that their accounts would not be suspended by administrators.
Fun couple of weeks, that was. Not one journalist did their homework.
long post, Antifa, Trump Administration, "Domestic Terrorism" Show more
@BryanLunduke @bob @colomar ...Not having people respond to you doesn't excuse you not doing your homework and saying whatever you want. The fact is that A) Riseup.net is associated with Antifa only in as much as people who may use it will sometimes call themselves Antifa, and
B) Antifa, while it may be labeled as much by the Trump administration, is not a domestic terrorist organization. Nor, indeed, any kind of organization - it's a something some people will occasionally call themselves, nothing more. Theres no overarching structure there to speak of.
@deadsuperhero @bob @colomar @Angle Can you disprove what I stated? Every item that I presented as facts in the video is backed up by the words of the organizations in question. I would be happy to be proven wrong and would quickly correct any error I reported.
If you can't disprove (with verifiable facts) what I stated... then what point are you trying to make?
Easy. You basically misused the transitive property, ascribed a small portion of RiseUp's userbase and designated that group as the main cohort.
That's like finding a bunch of radical terrorist blogs self-hosting on the Wordpress platform and calling Wordpress the ISIS Blog Platform.
@deadsuperhero @bob @colomar @Angle It's troubling also to hear this kind of messaging on a decentralized network, by a person who seems to be advocating them. We hear these attacks of mis-conflation a lot. Same is regularly applied against PGP/GPG and Tor and etc as terrorist tools but I hope you don't believe that. What about email self-hosting? What about... anything libre?
This is a classic intellectual trap @BryanLunduke ... don't fall for it, and please don't encourage it :\
@mangeurdenuage point still stands. Neither Mozilla, nor RiseUp gives 2 shits about this guy's opinion.
@mangeurdenuage My grandmother uses RiseUp Because she doesn't want to be spied on. Is Bryan Lunduke going to convict my ~80yo stroke-surviving grandmother of being a domestic terrorist? Is that what's on the fucking table here?
Nevermind that we have all known of the witch-hunts that might result from the dawn of DHS and the Patriot Act. The US government has lost legitimacy. Normal people are using "radical" tools as a matter of practicality in daily life.
1) antifa can't really be considered an organisation, but I'll let you have that one for free
2) antifa is certainly not a "domestic terrorist organisation", if you're going to libel a group you could do with a better source than "this load of idiots said so", reports of actual terrorist activities would cover this one
3) Just because some users of $thing are x, doesn't mean that all users of $thing are x
@h4ck3r9 You had no idea because it's simply not true. RiseUp is _not_ run by Antifa, that's just something @BryanLunduke made up, with no factual basis. They _are_ sympathetic to radical left-wing / anarchist ideas (which you should have known before signing up, since they are totally open about that), which is why it's natural for Antifa to choose them, bit that's all the connection there is. Don't fall for conspiracy theories.
@mwlucas @Angle @colomar The only run-in I've had with Antifa is when they came to my town -- broke windows. Pulled bricks off a bathroom. Threw bottles filled with piss and poo at people. It was gross. That's the only experience I have with them. Not sure that I'd classify that as "terrorist" or simply "terrible"... but definitely gross.
If it puts them in a negative light. It seems they claim those people suddenly either not apart of said movement. Either that or they get put in the box of a small percentage of extremist and do not represent the movement as a whole.
Also if someone comes along and says Antifa is not a movement either. Then what is it?
@Angle @BryanLunduke @mwlucas @colomar "pulled bricks off a bathroom" is something the Portland cops made up to justify shooting counter protesters. They said black bloc ppl were pulling bricks off of a historic bathroom (Portland, remember) to throw, then said that there hadn't been any property damage after they'd detained everyone and photographed IDs.
I don't know much abou tech. But after research, all profen by facts, I have evidence that they are all very bad ppl.
Here some example:
I use gmail, facebook my electricity is coal powerd, water comes from nestle, gen modified food with extra portion of pesticieds...
@BryanLunduke @colomar @mwlucas @Angle
Then I made some research and found out that tech ppl behind gmail and fb work towards more survailience, for the coal they bullied entire villages away if ppl want or not, the people enabeling the water flow here all working towards something you could call building a cartell..
I don't know, but I think most tech ppl do things which are in some countries under penality
I think all tech ppl are bad
That's a legit complaint.
Many assholes declare themselves "antifa" and run around throwing rocks. It's the new label claimed by people looking for excuses.
But there's a whole bunch of antifa who spend most of their time doing boring antifa grunt work, comparatively little in protests, and none breaking windows.
I measure someone's participation in a movement by how much time they spend doing the boring grunt work.
(Apologies for tagging in everyone. LMK if you want to be tagged out).
I understand Bryan's position on how Antifa is classified by the DHS. However I completely agree with Mike Lucas' point that this is some serious Grade-A propaganda from the current administration. This is the same "You're with us or you're with the terr'ists" nonsense that we saw under GWB.
Again, I understand the journalistic take here but there is way more nuance than first appears.
Most of them are private people who want their movement to evaporate once goddamn torch-bearing Nazis aren't marching and chanting.
If you're looking for a media contact, though, I can probably find someone who is a) not a Russian fake, and b) willing to talk.
Today, the fakes far outnumber the real antifa. :-(
Doesn't matter if I, you, or they like it. That's the system they set up.
If there's someone I can officially speak to -- who is willing to go on the record (name and face) and talk about it... with details of organizational structure, funding sources, activities, goals, documented results... I'm in. Would love to talk.
And there's a difference between, say, the Linux fan who runs it, and the Linux fan who trumpets how it's awesome but doesn't actually use it. Same difference, except with throwing rocks.
By many standards, I'm antifa. Someone spouts white supremacist propaganda at me, and I will start with "that's messed up" and end with punching them. Probably spend a night in jail for it, but that's okay.
Throwing the punch is the last resort. I start by telling people that working to eliminate other races is messed up.
Peaceful methods are always preferable. Some people, usually white men, won't listen to anyone who isn't a white man. So it falls on me. And a few of those won't listen to any words at all.
Could I be charged with assault? Yep. Should matters hit that point, I'll let the jury settle it.
I completely disagree. White nationalists deliberately use free speech and tolerance against those who espouse them. I believe in the "paradox of tolerance." Look it up if you haven't before.
Arguing here will not convince anyone, though. Feel free to approach me in meatspace to talk over a drink.
Enjoy the last word.
Politics are us-vs-them. And politicians are using critical issues to divide people. I think survival of our citizens is the single most important issue, so that puts me on one side, because the other ignores, dismisses, and belittles it.
Talking to people is the best way to avoid political violence. I'll accept that night in jail, but not looking gleefully forward to it.
@sillystring @mwlucas @colomar @Angle @BryanLunduke
Let's just pause here for a moment, and forget about what isolated instances of antifa may or may not have done. Instead we must look at the bigger picture, historically speaking, and sort of objectively.
I pose these questions:
Shouldn't the Soviet Union have entered Nazi Germany and ended their imperialism? Would we have been better off if the conflict had been resolved with diplomacy, and thus resulted in peaceful coexistence with NAZIS?
@mwlucas @Angle @colomar @BryanLunduke
I liked your previous work. But this time, I stopped after 5 min. of shittalk.
You suggested you start with facts, but you don't and just fill it up with your opinion.
1. riseup is NOT antifa mail
2. riseup is much more then e-mail service
3. antifa is not an organisation or institution
There are two scenarios
1. you have no idea what you're talking about
2. you're sympatizer of far-right
It's like if someone describes you as a far-right sympaziser and I just repeat this message I'm part of creating a harmfull narrative against you.
Sayn that is not taking side is naiv or a lie.
It's like if someone describes you as a far-right sympaziser and I just repeat this message I'm part of creating a harmfull narrative against you.
Sayn that is not taking side is naiv or a lie.
@BryanLunduke @Angle @colomar Governmental organizations and non governmental organizations alike are not objective sources. By elevating a definition from any one organization you are taking a political stance in line with that organization's politics. There is nothing particularly wrong with taking a political stance, even just if it is the status quo, but there is something wrong with pretending it is apolitical.
@BryanLunduke As much as i dislike what Antifa stands for. In my eyes this remains the following 'Mozilla funds secure e-mail, vpn and chatting services to help out free speech'. As much as you and I disagree with Antifa lets at least agree helping out speech itself is not wrong. After all only there communication got funded, not there movement.
@BryanLunduke Hey Brian, I've been a big fan for quite some time now of both your videos and your writing. Your show has shown me some pretty great free software and brought me here to Mastodon. This video however is poorly researched and regardless of your insistence that you're trying to remain apolitical, the very framing and cherry picking of data in this video proves otherwise, intentional or not. So long and thanks for all the fish.
Politics and discussion of Antifa Show more
@BryanLunduke One of the first things is the false equivilency of RiseUp with with the Anti-Facist “movement”. According to the Wikipedia page you referenced in your video, RiseUp was launched in 1999 long before Antifa became a hot topic. As for who uses RiseUp, when I was looking for an encrypted alternative to gmail after the 2013 Snowden leaks, I (Continued at https://pastebin.mozilla.org/9069600)
@BryanLunduke @coffeeframe the main issue I have with the episode is that there isn't just one antifa group (terrorist or otherwise). Many self described antifa people or groups are good, civic minded people, so you can't just make a riseup-antifa-terrorist connection. You should dig a bit deeper to see if there are actual Bolshevik/tankie type of outfits prominent within riseup before making such a conclusion (we should watch for such things in any case). I would be interested in a followup.
@coffeeframe @BryanLunduke I'm not as upset as some were by this episode of your show but it does rub me the wrong way just like when mainstream media conflates "hacker" with "criminal" and certain free software communities and people with nefarious activity (such as being into crypto/blockchain must mean you are into drug trafficking).
Even if (as I believe) riseup is an earnest and worthy cause, Mobile's does owe everyone an explanation why they deserve such an outsized contribution IMHO.
@msh @BryanLunduke That's very true, I considered putting that point into my writing but I didn't. As for why they got so much money, maybe it's for DDOS protection services, or it needs to last them a fair number of years, or maybe someone high up in Mozilla just likes them. Heck, if I was a billionaire, I'd throw a good chunk of money toward the Mailpile team among others, likely more than 100k.
@coffeeframe @BryanLunduke such a group would definitely need to be resilient against DDoS so that is likely. My biggest questions are...why should Mozilla be the benefactor, and why riseup specifically?
Such things need not be explained if it is, say, Shuttleworth or Musk donating personal fortunes to pet causes, but this is a nonprofit distributing money from the public, so the public should know the reasoning.
I hope Lunduke's odd fumbles don't make you stop watching. It won't for me.
That's false. Cause simple as it is, #antifa is not an organisation.
And if you tell him he acuses you of lying and call it libel.
This non stop cherry picking
( it gives the trump administration the possibility to easaly acuse others for terrorism..ppl should be consernd
"The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has formally classified the activities of anti-fascist groups (antifa) as “domestic terrorist violence” since early 2016..." http://www.newsweek.com/are-antifa-terrorists-658396
@Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring @gabriele
because it's pointless to develope free software if society can't be free.
#Fascism is based on opression. Anti-fascism is about to counter this opression.
I mean what are you doing here in #mastodon if you're not in favour of free software and free society?
@paulfree14 @Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring I'm all-in for free software, everything I use and develop is free software, and I even donate a substantial amount of my salary to various free software projects. That said, it's clear you don't know what #fascism is. I'll give you an hint: it'based on radical socialism (NOT oppression).
@paulfree14 @BryanLunduke @sillystring Can someone explain to @gabriele Mastodon and Fediverse are not "run" by @Gargron? He did create the Mastodon software, but a). #Fediverse was there long before; b). instances are run by different people with different views.
I mean, it's like saying "How will I convince people to use computers if Windows was created by Bill gates". Doesn't make any sense.
Your friends are welcome, in fact *encouraged* to use a different instance than mastodon.social.
But also - why do you need me to be an agreeable figure for your right-leaning friends? I'm hardly a public person and have no influence over the network beyond my own mastodon.social. That's what I don't get.
@Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring
Tolerant society which doesn't allow true free of speech and bans "wrong" ideas? And don't tell me that you can't tolerate who is against tolerance in the first place, because true fascism it's really not about oppression. The 1919 manifesto of italian fascists preached universal suffrage, minimum wage, socialization of economy; are any of those absolutely wrong ideas?
fascism sympaziser Show more
bing bing bing. Welcome fascist (supporter). I don't like your ideology and I speak out against it.
Yes that's free speech! So what's your problem?
Solidarity and such is great. But that's not the key element of fascism.
If it would they could work well together with anarchists and liberal-communists.
Why do you oppose anarchists and support those violently threatening them?
fascism sympaziser Show more
You have just stayted multible times that you are supporting fascist values
Here just some:
- antifa is bad, you shouldn't support them cause then I can't get my rightwing friends on board
- sexism, racism, bigotry, homophopia aren't real issues
- *THE* history book describes fascism as having great ideals
May I suggest that there's a distinction to be made here between the organization and its cause?
I don't think we're discussing whether fascism is acceptable or not, but rather the manner in which we should display our distaste for it.
Terrorists are just the freedom fighters of the opposing side.. and those who harm innocents to make a statement and/or incite fear.
Anyway, you are right, this discussion shouldn't be whether fascism or terrorism is ok or not, but if a big american company as Mozilla should indirectly (but willingly ? we don't know) support a terrorist and controversial "group" as Antifa.
I think that probably they shouldn't do this, and it's really not about Antifa, it's about supporting a terrorist group being bad for their public image.
Without involving the term "terrorist", I agree that *directly* supporting a political activist group with a history of violent displays is not advisable.
*Indirectly* is more difficult to condemn, because you can't know their intention for sure. You can indirectly cause incredible damage contributing to a good cause and vice versa.
"always" was a poor choice of word on my part. But even if one tries to discuss the core elements it quickly devolves into shit-slinging because someone feels personally offended at the mention of a term with historical connotations.
See the above discussion for example. Someone mentions AntiFa and suddenly half of the participants in the discussion are alleged fascists and the other half alleged stalinists.
@nev @Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring Really? I thought the main selling point of Mastodon was to be a good looking implementation of GNU social, with all the good things that come with that: being decentralyzed, federated, free speech enabling and not run by greedy corporations.
I really couldn't care less about the presence of fascist, antifascist or <insert random label>. That's really the last of my concerns.
@gabriele WTF dude nobody WANTS your right wing shitheads on hwre. This is just how Mastodon is supposed to work. I applaud @gargron for making such a clear statement. It shows that Mastodon is indeed much better than Twitter - assholes who support fascism (because that's what you do when you are against Anrifa) should not feel welcome here, or anywhere! @BryanLunduke @sillystring
Put down your pink baton and shield. Consider supporting somebody on the good side. For example https://www.splcenter.org
@sillystring I don't have a problem with nazi punching. I don't have a problem with using violence to protect marginalized people in a country where the police is regularly on the oppressor's side and can't be trusted. Antifa wouldn't need to exist if the non-violent ways to exterminate fascist ideology acrually *worked*, if nazi ideology was properly repressed, if people wearing swastikas would be seen as enemies of the people and get locked up immediately.
@BryanLunduke that was disappointing to see, all those youtube comments about antifa.
anyway, it's a good thing RiseUp is finally getting more funding to the tune of $100,000 they've got really good software and it's nice for leftists to have a good platform to use.
@BryanLunduke Right-wing clickbait nonsense. Riseup is used by many groups and individuals for many different purposes; it distinguishes itself primarily by being usable anonymously. Singling out "antifa" is bait for people who have been riled up by right-wing media. This is obvious and is being pointed out to you repeatedly, but you insist on being in the right. Unfollowed, maybe try gab.ai for this kind of crap?
@BryanLunduke After watching this video and reading some other's toots about it, I just wanted to say that I think you're absolutely right. Weather or not you agree with what Antifa or even Riseup as a whole is about, I think, objectively, Mozilla should really not have their fingers in this one. If Riseup or Mozilla was willing to talk to you about it and clarify their positions, that would be one thing, but their silence is very telling. Ignore your detractors and keep pursuing this story.
@paulfree14 I don't think that's true. I suppose he did make the title of the video a bit inflammatory, but I cannot defend the actions of Antifa, and Riseup is clearly linked to Antifa. Even if Mozilla wants to claim that their support of Riseup has nothing to do with their connection to Antifa, they cannot ignore his emails for DAYS, it makes it all look real suspicious.
...lol, shure they can ignore his e-mail. If some random person asks me about an interview, without bodering to make any research in advance shure I ignore it when I have 100s of other e-mails comming in.
«I hear you're a NAZI now father Bryan»! LOL (see Father Ted)
Seriously, anyone using RiseUp, a US based service, for 'radical' activities, is naïve at best. And where does #mozilla get all this money to throw about anyway?!
I certain more terrorists use GMail et al than RiseUp.
And a hell of a lot more people use RiseUp than just the angry brigade..
@BryanLunduke a number of things first antifa is not an organization it is a network of people, federated, of anti fascists activists fighting against nazis and white supremacy. You took a by line from the dhs on what it is. Research Antifa first.
RiseUp has been around for a long time and do more than email and have various radical left folks. You did the least amount of work to come to your conclusions. You are indirectly supporting white supremacy at least and nazis at most.
@BryanLunduke for someone who likes spreading unfounded bullshit around you sure have no tolerance for criticism https://mstdn.omaera.org/media/cDzlrVoWLHPa2KpkFfQ
@BryanLunduke i'm disappointed bryan
this is terrible and you will never know how terrible it is until your friends gets killed for some of these ideas and you'll have never listened to them
and on that day i hope you'll fucking feel bad
i am one of those people that would have liked you if you didn't represent a very real danger you didn't even bother to understand
@BryanLunduke there's literally a comment calling an organization whose sole purpose is to deny rights to non-heterosexual people, "pro-family".
i think that speaks *a lot* of how fucked up things are right in front of you.
do you have any idea what it is to be told that you, asking to have an official relationship like everyone else, is "against families" and forbidden by law?
People get destroyed for this every day. I know some of those people. It hurts like nothing else could.
@BryanLunduke Now it is the time for all brave folk to start using Mozilla? I will dip a toe in that water. I really like all the work they are doing toward browser privacy. Just worry I don't know enough to really speak with intelligence, so lots of grains of salt folk.
If it is politically difficult for Mozilla to fund free-speech projects used by (among others) networks of anti-fascists, it may be time for Mozilla to get out of the US.
Should they also refuse to fund free-speech projects used by pro-democracy networks that China classifies as terrorist?
Just the other day you complained about shutting down of services coz Spain declared them illegal.
@BryanLunduke : "Mozilla (maker of Firefox) gives $100,000 to fund Antifa email"
@BryanLunduke You do good work, Sir. It's troubling that Mozilla would support antifa(directly or indirectly), an organization that espouses antifascist and anticapitalist ideals yet uses tactics of which Hitler's brown shirts would be proud. If this is all true, Mozilla should divest of riseup, come clean and apologize. Rogue violence is not the answer.
2. Since when is Mastadon an antifa organization?
3. He's spot on otherwise the subjects would be responding and the hornet's nest would not be stirred.
@BryanLunduke saying that support for riseup is support for antifa is like saying support for tor is support for terrorists or pedophiles.
I know people in the US are basically loosing their shit over everything lately and outrage is modern as fuck, but how is this productive?
You are holding mozilla accountable on behalf of riseup and riseup themselves accountable on behalf of their users. By analogy every contribution to the FSF is a contribution to software that is used by antifa or fascists.
@BryanLunduke Furthermore, me giving you money to give money to the W3C to join them is essentially monetarily supporting an organization that wishes to standardize DRM.
The insane strive for perfect, in-depth, detailed ideological purity and lack of nuance towards people, organizations and ideas is pretty much the fucked up part of society today.
Anonymity services are there for people to use. Taking them away form the bad means also taking them away from the good.
Mischaracterization of Riseup Show more
Riseup has been one of the recommended email services on PRISM Break for a long time. Riseup has a lot of users. Though it's a safe bet (given the site's name) that most users have left-wing politics of some variety, there's no good reason to assume that most or even a substantial proportion are affiliated with the antifa movement.
Thank you. However, my toot was directed at @BryanLunduke and the content he produces. It didn't warrant a response from you, @paulfree14, as I didn't ask to be told what to do, or how to think. That is for Lemmings, and, I do not behave as such.
Again, Bryan, I stand by my original toot😉 *edited to correct double negative.
@BryanLunduke Antifa is a banner in somewhat the same manner Anonymous is. Anyone who do no like fascists can use that banner. They are no terrorists. Unless you are a fascist that will say.
The only ones who support you seems to have fascist leanings... or at least alt-right. That is not a good position.
You got baited and swallowed it whole... I hope you are able to see through all this and correct your stance.
@shellkr It appears, from here, quite the opposite.
The US government have declared Antifa "terrorists". That's a fact that's easy to prove with a quick online search and that's how I stated it in the video.
MOST people seem to support the facts I laid out. Roughly 4 to 1 on the video "likes".
I have, however, already received threats of violence from people demanding I take the video down. So. There's that.
Your an Untermensch, also fact by some fascist officials. Doesn't makes it valid.
I have outlined that you don't speak after facts but spreading fascist propaganda.
Rather then calling me a lying and sayn you stay on the facts while impling I don't, you could try to depunk my arguments with facts.
You haven't made any counter-arguments to the facts I presented. You've talked about un-related (or tangentially related) topics. There's nothing for me to argue against (other than the character assassination you partake in... which has already been debunked).
Go away or some up with something useful, factual and interesting.
@BryanLunduke Yes, but you are smarter than that. If you don't like fascists you are Antifa... and I guess you would not call yourself a terrorist. That Trump try to prohibit anti-fascism is no surprise. Which is the whole reason why Antifa was put up on the terrorist list. I know you are not this naive.
I didn't like it.. but I didn't vote "dislike" on it. That is a very bad measurement. How many percent did vote of the viewers?
Don't take it down.. just add some context (corrections).
He just doesn't respond to any of those arguments.
Every argument which is seriously questionizing him he ignores, while stateing if someone has a good argument why I'm false I will correct my standpoint.
That's not true.
Also his video where he talks about his politic views he's sayn I'm not alt-right or alt-left.
From what I know both was shaped from fascists, which would give some more insights through what sources he get's influenced.
@BryanLunduke I honestly don't understand why Mozilla would give funding to riseup (as they just seem to run services without providing any technical advances for the broader FOSS community). So yes I think this is a political action and they should be called out for it. BUT still your video misses the point completely. You went from "Mozilla supports a anti-capitalist platform" to "Mozilla supports Terrorists (min. 10:22)" just because some site listed antifa organisations that use riseup.
Now I see why Brendan Eich had to step down as CEO at Mozilla, after his private money donation for California's Prop. 8.
I stopped using their "anti-free-speech" software, but after few years I thought, maybe something had changed. But it hadn't.
Why companies have to be part of political conflicts, instead just making good products for everyone?
Maybe RiseUp will release their secure email system as open source?
Who else can create modern, advanced, FOSS internet browser?