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Bryan Lunduke @BryanLunduke

Mozilla (maker of Firefox) gives $100,000 to fund Antifa email.

youtube.com/watch?v=KPgyTzqDJh

@BryanLunduke
What kind of populist bullshit are you spreading now, Bryan?
"Antifa email"? Is Tor now an "Antifa anonymity service" as well? If they used openSUSE, would it be "Antifa Linux", too?
If they used Github to share code, would it make Github the "Antifa code platform"?

And since when do you trust the classification of the Department of Homeland Security und the Trump government, especially when it comes to an anti-fascist movement?
Have you ever talked to anybody from Antifa?

@colomar @BryanLunduke Yeah, I gotta say I rolled my eyes at the "Antifa = domestic terrorists!" It's just such an overreaction. 🙄

@Angle "Overreaction" is an understatement here. That whole video is walking right into right-wing conspiracy theory territory, claiming that it's all "facts".

Well if the money was donated before they were labelled has a "domestic terrorists" it's not a problem and is indeed a over reaction.
But giving money to something that is now legally considered has a "domestic terrorists" organization can be damaging to Mozilla since they can be accused has helping/assisting a "domestic terrorists" organization.
Of course there's nothing to worry about mozilla if they did it before the new governmental label.

@Angle @colomar In the USA, Antifa is a group engaging in domestic terrorism. They actively promote themselves as such and the government classifies them that way as well. That's not even taking a political "side" on them... just stating facts that they, themselves, put out there. Pretty straight forward.

@Angle @BryanLunduke @colomar

> expecting a tech journalist to be well-versed in Left political movements

@xj9 Tech journalists don't necessarily have to be well-versed in things which are not tech, but they should do their research before spreading accusations.

It doesn't matter what they did or not if it's just or unjust the fact is that the Feds have declared that antifa is a terrorist organization.
You can debate if it is or not has such but officially now it's like that.

@mangeurdenuage The feds can tell me that elephants are ants too, if they like. Doesn't mean I'll believe that either. :V

I don't say believe them or not
Maybe I wasn't clear enough, the feds do not care about what you or I think they'll enforce what they chosen to enforce.

@mangeurdenuage And that means we should take their word for it? Report on the feds classifying Antifa as domestic terrorists if you like, but don't try and blithely pass off their classification as a fact.

@mangeurdenuage True, but Mozilla has given money to RiseUp, not to Antifa.

If giving money to an organization which provides services that organizations classified as terrorists use is a crime, then everyone who financed Facebook, Twitter, Telegram, WhatsApp, and so many others would have a problem, too.

@colomar
Yeah I know otherwise every email provider is a potentialterrorist organization
I had that in mind thank you.
But still mozilla has implicate itself in the game of politics and believe me that if a political figure has a grudge or business over mozilla then they'll use this against them by any means.

@angle
--but don't try and blithely pass off their classification as a fact--
I don't have to, they said it.
What you seem to not understand is that it is now a official fact from the government and you should be aware of that.
But even so you still have your own choice about what to think about it, everyone has a choice about either classifying or not something, it's not like they can implement a chip in to your brain to force you to think about something (yet).

@Angle @BryanLunduke @colomar I think domestic terrorism includes burning and destroying the property of innocent bystanders to protest the speech of people they disagree with.

@BryanLunduke @Angle Show me the primary source where Antifa promote themselves as terrorists.

@BryanLunduke @Angle @colomar The current government? Sorry but right now the rest of the world is having a hard time taking your current government seriously.

@colomar @Angle @BryanLunduke "The United States government" which you seem to hold in high regard also declared that no transgender people shall serve in the military and from what I hear are attacking voter rights and supporting some quite questionable figures.
So maybe take their opinion on ANTIFA with a grain of salt?

@BryanLunduke @Angle @colomar 'Antifa' isn't really a unified group. There are some folks in it who DO in fact advocate brawling in the streets in accord with, in their words, ‘Marxist-Leninist-Maoist Science’ but others adopt the label just to describe their protest activities. You could probably classify the street brawling advocates as something, but Id on't think they've actually /done/ that much to make them worth classifying.

@Azure
I know that there are people in Antifa who condone violence against fascists. I strongly disagree with those people, because I consider myself a pacifist.
That these people exist does not make the whole movement (as you said, it's not even an organization as such) "terrorists".

@bryanlunduke @angle @colomar I don't really want to get into a flamewar about this because I don't have a RiseUp account and I have other things to occupy mindspace right now, but really you should have done more research on this. Try to get someone associated with RiseUp on the show, or at least someone who has an account, to explain what it's about.

Think about why activists might not all want to be on Gmail. Google, Facebook, etc, also do plenty of political stuff.

@bob @colomar @Angle @BryanLunduke

God, this reminds me of that one time that the BBC caught wind of a handful of self-proclaimed ISIS acolytes hanging out on like two Diaspora servers. Headlines blared that ISIS joined Diaspora, Diaspora could not / would not stop ISIS, and that their accounts would not be suspended by administrators.

Fun couple of weeks, that was. Not one journalist did their homework.

@bob @colomar @Angle I did. RiseUp and Mozilla both avoided my attempts at communication for over half a week. Due diligence done.

I continue to request their statements -- and offer them a platform to express their views. They don't take me up on it. That's on them.

long post, Antifa, Trump Administration, "Domestic Terrorism" Show more

@BryanLunduke @bob @colomar @Angle

With respect, doing the bare minimum required of investigative journalism is not due diligence. Sending a few emails or making a few phone calls isn't exactly bending over backwards.

@deadsuperhero @bob @colomar @Angle Can you disprove what I stated? Every item that I presented as facts in the video is backed up by the words of the organizations in question. I would be happy to be proven wrong and would quickly correct any error I reported.

If you can't disprove (with verifiable facts) what I stated... then what point are you trying to make?

@BryanLunduke @deadsuperhero @bob @colomar Dude, I already disproved (with Verifiable Facts) what you stated in the video description - that Antifa is not a domestic terrorist organization. (On grounds of not being an organization at all.) Boom, done.

@BryanLunduke @bob @colomar @Angle

Easy. You basically misused the transitive property, ascribed a small portion of RiseUp's userbase and designated that group as the main cohort.

That's like finding a bunch of radical terrorist blogs self-hosting on the Wordpress platform and calling Wordpress the ISIS Blog Platform.

@deadsuperhero @bob @colomar @Angle It's troubling also to hear this kind of messaging on a decentralized network, by a person who seems to be advocating them. We hear these attacks of mis-conflation a lot. Same is regularly applied against PGP/GPG and Tor and etc as terrorist tools but I hope you don't believe that. What about email self-hosting? What about... anything libre?

This is a classic intellectual trap @BryanLunduke ... don't fall for it, and please don't encourage it :\

--It's troubling also to hear this kind of messaging on a decentralized network, by a person who seems to be advocating them.--
Why is it troubling ?

--Same is regularly applied against PGP/GPG and Tor and etc as terrorist tools but I hope you don't believe that. --
The actually subject isn't much about the tool (email provider) but about where goes public funding/resources.
And it's even more worrying because mozilla is a free software project like said earlier the game of politics is no joke.

--What about email self-hosting?--
That's a good idea but what are your contacts with the average joe computer user?
@mangeurdenuage @cwebber Never forget: most of #Mozilla is a tax-exempt non-profit. Because of this, _any_ political activity could cause them to lose their status.

I'm not fully convinced that contributing to #RiseUp would be considered political, but the fact that they'd take that chance indicates that their management is seriously endangering everything they've accomplished.

(Note: I'm neither right-wing nor left-wing, but I'm in favor of RiseUp continuing to offer its services. I am concerned that they seem to be the default for left-wingers who don't use Google/Microsoft/Yahoo, so that makes RiseUp a major choke point for NSA to monitor much of the left's communication in one bucket.)

@lnxw48a1 @cwebber @mangeurdenuage That is not accurate... it is specific political activity, i.e. supporting a specific candidate, supporting political parties. Riseup itself is also a 501c4

@marxistvegan @lnxw48a1 @cwebber @mangeurdenuage wow. They didn't answer your emails? It's almost like they don't care about your paranoid Youtube rants. That must be super weird for you.

@teslasmoustache
Check the definition of paranoid please, there's a difference between suspicion and paranoia.

@mangeurdenuage point still stands. Neither Mozilla, nor RiseUp gives 2 shits about this guy's opinion.

And that's a very bad PR decision if there was ever one because that only brings more suspicious.

@mangeurdenuage My grandmother uses RiseUp Because she doesn't want to be spied on. Is Bryan Lunduke going to convict my ~80yo stroke-surviving grandmother of being a domestic terrorist? Is that what's on the fucking table here?

Nevermind that we have all known of the witch-hunts that might result from the dawn of DHS and the Patriot Act. The US government has lost legitimacy. Normal people are using "radical" tools as a matter of practicality in daily life.

@deadsuperhero @bob @colomar @Angle @BryanLunduke @cwebber decentralized just means that everyone has a voice, even if you don't like it. :-/

@BryanLunduke @deadsuperhero @bob @colomar @Angle

1) antifa can't really be considered an organisation, but I'll let you have that one for free
2) antifa is certainly not a "domestic terrorist organisation", if you're going to libel a group you could do with a better source than "this load of idiots said so", reports of actual terrorist activities would cover this one
3) Just because some users of $thing are x, doesn't mean that all users of $thing are x

@deadsuperhero
I agree that it's a bit much to say that all rise.up is part of antifa even if some evidence seems to indicate some political acquaintances, but it's also not cool that mozilla an rise.up haven't responded

@BryanLunduke
Bryan when you say that you've sent emails or that you had responses could you please share them publicly so that we can verify by ourselves if it's not to much to ask ?
This would greatly improve our own research methodology.

@BryanLunduke @Angle @colomar @bob wait, so riseup, an email service is been using for 3 years is run by antifa? I literally had no idea. I just thought it was an email service that didn't collect my data...

@h4ck3r9 You had no idea because it's simply not true. RiseUp is _not_ run by Antifa, that's just something @BryanLunduke made up, with no factual basis. They _are_ sympathetic to radical left-wing / anarchist ideas (which you should have known before signing up, since they are totally open about that), which is why it's natural for Antifa to choose them, bit that's all the connection there is. Don't fall for conspiracy theories.

@bob @colomar @Angle @BryanLunduke I'm trying to keep my temper under check here. What this person has done is start a smear campaign, put simply. Whether it was unintentional or not that's beside the point. Adults should expect consequences for their actions. This is not gab.ai.

@bob @colomar @Angle @BryanLunduke But Bob, according to Bryan's video description, RiseUp didn't respond to requests for comment for a whole half a week! That's THREE!! WHOLE!! DAYS!! That's the statute of limitations after which Bryan can just make up whatever shit he wants, right?

@bob I dont know anything about RiseUp. But @BryanLunduke frequently preaches his disapproval of Google, Facebook etc....

@BryanLunduke @Angle @colomar I know quite a few antifa. Much of the "info" about them is part of the whole Russian disinformation haze. Most of their work is done in tracking fascist activity.

Anti-fascist should be the default stance of US citizens.

@mwlucas @Angle @colomar The only run-in I've had with Antifa is when they came to my town -- broke windows. Pulled bricks off a bathroom. Threw bottles filled with piss and poo at people. It was gross. That's the only experience I have with them. Not sure that I'd classify that as "terrorist" or simply "terrible"... but definitely gross.

@BryanLunduke @colomar @Angle @mwlucas
I'd call Antifa a terrorist group for sure. They inflict violence to intimidate people and cause political change with that intimidation.

@BryanLunduke @mwlucas @colomar ...And where was this? Cause no offense, but that sounds incredibly made up. :/

@colomar @mwlucas @BryanLunduke Also not the act of an organization, but I rest my case.

@Angle @colomar @mwlucas Shrug. The act of an organized group of people all dressed the same declaring themselves "Antifa". I guess if that's not "Antifa"... then... I really don't know what to call any of them.

@BryanLunduke @Angle @colomar @mwlucas
riseup.net is a platform for people to have private conversation. This is a thing that is valued by many and growing scarcer. But I heard coffeeshops are "antifa hangouts".

@mwlucas @colomar @Angle @BryanLunduke
Either way, I don't understand how people can be surprised that mozilla is trying their hand in back alley data farming.

@BryanLunduke @Angle @colomar @mwlucas

If it puts them in a negative light. It seems they claim those people suddenly either not apart of said movement. Either that or they get put in the box of a small percentage of extremist and do not represent the movement as a whole.

Also if someone comes along and says Antifa is not a movement either. Then what is it?

@Angle @BryanLunduke @mwlucas @colomar "pulled bricks off a bathroom" is something the Portland cops made up to justify shooting counter protesters. They said black bloc ppl were pulling bricks off of a historic bathroom (Portland, remember) to throw, then said that there hadn't been any property damage after they'd detained everyone and photographed IDs.

@Angle @mwlucas @colomar @BryanLunduke
just a little biased perspective how all tech ppl are:

I don't know much abou tech. But after research, all profen by facts, I have evidence that they are all very bad ppl.

Here some example:
I use gmail, facebook my electricity is coal powerd, water comes from nestle, gen modified food with extra portion of pesticieds...

@BryanLunduke @colomar @mwlucas @Angle
Then I made some research and found out that tech ppl behind gmail and fb work towards more survailience, for the coal they bullied entire villages away if ppl want or not, the people enabeling the water flow here all working towards something you could call building a cartell..
I don't know, but I think most tech ppl do things which are in some countries under penality
I think all tech ppl are bad

@BryanLunduke @Angle @colomar

That's a legit complaint.

Many assholes declare themselves "antifa" and run around throwing rocks. It's the new label claimed by people looking for excuses.

But there's a whole bunch of antifa who spend most of their time doing boring antifa grunt work, comparatively little in protests, and none breaking windows.

I measure someone's participation in a movement by how much time they spend doing the boring grunt work.

@mwlucas @BryanLunduke @Angle @colomar

(Apologies for tagging in everyone. LMK if you want to be tagged out).

I understand Bryan's position on how Antifa is classified by the DHS. However I completely agree with Mike Lucas' point that this is some serious Grade-A propaganda from the current administration. This is the same "You're with us or you're with the terr'ists" nonsense that we saw under GWB.

Again, I understand the journalistic take here but there is way more nuance than first appears.

@mwlucas @colomar @Angle @BryanLunduke

"Most of their work is done in tracking fascist activity."

I find this difficult to believe. There are legitimate and well funded nonprofits in the US that track extremest activity. Antifa != SPLC. splcenter.org

@sillystring @BryanLunduke @Angle @colomar There's far more of these groups, and extremist activists, than the SPLC can track.

Nothing beats feet on the sidewalk, talking to people. Which the SPLC can't do nearly enough of.

@mwlucas @sillystring @Angle @colomar Interesting. I've never seen anything to suggest that "Antifa" does this. Do they document this work somewhere that we can all see?

@BryanLunduke @sillystring @Angle @colomar You'll want to talk to some of the actively involved folks.

Most of them are private people who want their movement to evaporate once goddamn torch-bearing Nazis aren't marching and chanting.

If you're looking for a media contact, though, I can probably find someone who is a) not a Russian fake, and b) willing to talk.

Today, the fakes far outnumber the real antifa. :-(

@mwlucas @sillystring @Angle @colomar If there is no "organization"... then the "fakes" are the "real" ones. That's how that works.

Doesn't matter if I, you, or they like it. That's the system they set up.

If there's someone I can officially speak to -- who is willing to go on the record (name and face) and talk about it... with details of organizational structure, funding sources, activities, goals, documented results... I'm in. Would love to talk.

@BryanLunduke @sillystring @Angle @colomar I'll ask.

And there's a difference between, say, the Linux fan who runs it, and the Linux fan who trumpets how it's awesome but doesn't actually use it. Same difference, except with throwing rocks.

By many standards, I'm antifa. Someone spouts white supremacist propaganda at me, and I will start with "that's messed up" and end with punching them. Probably spend a night in jail for it, but that's okay.

@jeff @BryanLunduke @sillystring @Angle @colomar Not nearly as violent as actively threatening the lives of the people I love.

@mwlucas @colomar @Angle @sillystring @BryanLunduke I'd disagree physical assault is the less violent than words, so would the law....

@jeff @BryanLunduke @sillystring @Angle @colomar

Throwing the punch is the last resort. I start by telling people that working to eliminate other races is messed up.

Peaceful methods are always preferable. Some people, usually white men, won't listen to anyone who isn't a white man. So it falls on me. And a few of those won't listen to any words at all.

Could I be charged with assault? Yep. Should matters hit that point, I'll let the jury settle it.

@mwlucas @colomar @Angle @sillystring @BryanLunduke Political violence is never an option in civilized society. full stop.

@jeff @BryanLunduke @sillystring @Angle @colomar A civilization whose law enforcement murders its own citizens is not civilized.

@mwlucas @colomar @Angle @sillystring @BryanLunduke I agree and police brutality effects everyone. I see 0 reason to make such a racial, cultural or religious based issue. Regardless that does not justify political violence, full stop. end of story.

@jeff @BryanLunduke @sillystring @Angle @colomar

I completely disagree. White nationalists deliberately use free speech and tolerance against those who espouse them. I believe in the "paradox of tolerance." Look it up if you haven't before.

Arguing here will not convince anyone, though. Feel free to approach me in meatspace to talk over a drink.

Enjoy the last word.

@mwlucas @colomar @Angle @sillystring @BryanLunduke I guess we can just agree to disagree on this then. The biggest problem is the political divide that has formed turned into a "us-vs-them" no one is allowed to have a nuanced opinion for fear of political violence wielded by both left and right political fringes. What's your favorite drink? I've always liked fruity drinks mixed with vodka.

@jeff @BryanLunduke @sillystring @Angle @colomar I'm partial to iced tea, personally.

Politics are us-vs-them. And politicians are using critical issues to divide people. I think survival of our citizens is the single most important issue, so that puts me on one side, because the other ignores, dismisses, and belittles it.

Talking to people is the best way to avoid political violence. I'll accept that night in jail, but not looking gleefully forward to it.

@mwlucas @colomar @Angle @sillystring @BryanLunduke Talking to people absolutely is the way forward and it's why the first amendment exists, to help diffuse the political tension peacefully, yes some use it to instigate but those people are asswipes I agree. The problem comes when people demand censorship of someone for political reasons, the ethno state people use that to fuel their victim narrative (DA JOOZ CONTROL IT ALL SEE I TOLD YOU) and then slowly lower them into conspiracy. What you want to do to combat bad ideas is to put forward good ideas that debunk the bad ones. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

Politicians are absolutely trying to utilize the divide and conquer tactics to retain their power, this should be the more disturbing issue above all else. Favorite Hard Ice Tea?
@mwlucas @colomar @Angle @sillystring @BryanLunduke ALL political precedents WILL be used by the powers that be to clamp down on EVERYONE. We NEEEED to stop escalating the issue as a society and figure out how to heal the political divide as civilized human beings, not thugs.

@mwlucas @colomar @Angle @BryanLunduke

Admitting that you are #antifa and willing to physically attack those who verbally disagree is proof that you are the #extremist.

@sillystring @BryanLunduke @Angle @colomar I don't do the work to be called antifa.

And pacifism in the face of existential threats is no virtue. Yes, white nationalists are existential threats to my country.

@mwlucas I still believe it is a virtue. That does not necessarily mean that it wins the fight, but that's not needed for it to be a virtue.

@sillystring @mwlucas @colomar @Angle @BryanLunduke
Let's just pause here for a moment, and forget about what isolated instances of antifa may or may not have done. Instead we must look at the bigger picture, historically speaking, and sort of objectively.

I pose these questions:

Shouldn't the Soviet Union have entered Nazi Germany and ended their imperialism? Would we have been better off if the conflict had been resolved with diplomacy, and thus resulted in peaceful coexistence with NAZIS?

@mwlucas @Angle @colomar @BryanLunduke
I liked your previous work. But this time, I stopped after 5 min. of shittalk.
You suggested you start with facts, but you don't and just fill it up with your opinion.

1. riseup is NOT antifa mail
2. riseup is much more then e-mail service
3. antifa is not an organisation or institution

There are two scenarios
1. you have no idea what you're talking about
2. you're sympatizer of far-right

@BryanLunduke @Angle @colomar Brian, haven’t you heard, the FBI says everything is terrorism. Except, maybe one recent massacre...

@BryanLunduke @Angle @colomar how do we get you blocked from mastodon, or as i call it: antifa twitter?

@BryanLunduke @Angle @colomar im pretty sure that if you just take what the US gov says on fave value, then you are making a political decision....

@Angle @colomar @BryanLunduke
of course it's taking politcal side. You're with that part of the voice of far-right and US gov.

It's like if someone describes you as a far-right sympaziser and I just repeat this message I'm part of creating a harmfull narrative against you.
Sayn that is not taking side is naiv or a lie.

@paulfree14 @Angle @colomar @BryanLunduke

Ha, from the headline alone I assume Brian would be cheering at Mozilla helping those who fight against fascism.

Classifying anti-fascists as terrorists says more about the US government than the anti-fascists I suspect.

Hurray to Mozilla.

@Angle @colomar @BryanLunduke
of course it's taking politcal side. You're with that part of the voice of far-right and US gov.

It's like if someone describes you as a far-right sympaziser and I just repeat this message I'm part of creating a harmfull narrative against you.
Sayn that is not taking side is naiv or a lie.

@BryanLunduke @Angle @colomar Governmental organizations and non governmental organizations alike are not objective sources. By elevating a definition from any one organization you are taking a political stance in line with that organization's politics. There is nothing particularly wrong with taking a political stance, even just if it is the status quo, but there is something wrong with pretending it is apolitical.

@colomar its a version of 'only terrorists use encryption' argument that is frankly very worrying from simeone who is/should be techsavy. and on top of that the sloppy research...

@BryanLunduke As much as i dislike what Antifa stands for. In my eyes this remains the following 'Mozilla funds secure e-mail, vpn and chatting services to help out free speech'. As much as you and I disagree with Antifa lets at least agree helping out speech itself is not wrong. After all only there communication got funded, not there movement.

Mozilla has tried to hide that they were into politics (for what I know) this is especially obvious since they forced away Brendan Eich for political motives (after only 10 days) and even more now on the cover of community benefice.
For example they spent 15k to remove the word slave from their code which is technically ridiculous:
https://blog.mozilla.org/blog/2015/12/10/mozilla-open-source-support-first-awards-made/
Of course their are other projects which isn't a waist of time/money.

@BryanLunduke Hey Brian, I've been a big fan for quite some time now of both your videos and your writing. Your show has shown me some pretty great free software and brought me here to Mastodon. This video however is poorly researched and regardless of your insistence that you're trying to remain apolitical, the very framing and cherry picking of data in this video proves otherwise, intentional or not. So long and thanks for all the fish.

@coffeeframe If *any* of the facts I present are wrong, please correct me and provide proof. I will promptly issue an update.

@BryanLunduke Please give me some time to compile some data and re-watch your video a few times so I can address your argumentation directly.

Politics and discussion of Antifa Show more

@BryanLunduke @coffeeframe the main issue I have with the episode is that there isn't just one antifa group (terrorist or otherwise). Many self described antifa people or groups are good, civic minded people, so you can't just make a riseup-antifa-terrorist connection. You should dig a bit deeper to see if there are actual Bolshevik/tankie type of outfits prominent within riseup before making such a conclusion (we should watch for such things in any case). I would be interested in a followup.

@coffeeframe @BryanLunduke I'm not as upset as some were by this episode of your show but it does rub me the wrong way just like when mainstream media conflates "hacker" with "criminal" and certain free software communities and people with nefarious activity (such as being into crypto/blockchain must mean you are into drug trafficking).

Even if (as I believe) riseup is an earnest and worthy cause, Mobile's does owe everyone an explanation why they deserve such an outsized contribution IMHO.

@msh @BryanLunduke That's very true, I considered putting that point into my writing but I didn't. As for why they got so much money, maybe it's for DDOS protection services, or it needs to last them a fair number of years, or maybe someone high up in Mozilla just likes them. Heck, if I was a billionaire, I'd throw a good chunk of money toward the Mailpile team among others, likely more than 100k.

@coffeeframe @BryanLunduke such a group would definitely need to be resilient against DDoS so that is likely. My biggest questions are...why should Mozilla be the benefactor, and why riseup specifically?

Such things need not be explained if it is, say, Shuttleworth or Musk donating personal fortunes to pet causes, but this is a nonprofit distributing money from the public, so the public should know the reasoning.

I hope Lunduke's odd fumbles don't make you stop watching. It won't for me.

@coffeeframe @BryanLunduke #Mozilla funds the a group that proclaims they are #anti-capitalist and supports #antifa. Bryan found that out and reported it. He even asked the groups involved for comment and they declined.

That isn't cherry picking, that's reporting. Good work!

@sillystring @coffeeframe Thanks, SillyString! Honestly this story would have been (nearly) identical if you replaced "Antifa" with, say, "Nazi Party" or something.

@coffeeframe @sillystring
nope. was nothing then cherry picking.
He used propaganda spread by fascists which got set into law by trump administration that antifa is a terror organisation.

That's false. Cause simple as it is, #antifa is not an organisation.

And if you tell him he acuses you of lying and call it libel.
This non stop cherry picking

( it gives the trump administration the possibility to easaly acuse others for terrorism..ppl should be consernd

@BryanLunduke Sorry, did you just write "a domestic terrorist organization within the United States" about antifa in your video's description? What the..? @mcscx

@Gargron @mcscx @BryanLunduke

"The Department of Homeland Security (DHS) has formally classified the activities of anti-fascist groups (antifa) as “domestic terrorist violence” since early 2016..." newsweek.com/are-antifa-terror

@sillystring @BryanLunduke @mcscx Yeah, the FBI also tried to get Martin Luther to kill himself. US institutions are infiltrated with white supremacists.

@Gargron @mcscx @BryanLunduke

You claim Bryan said something wrong, then when presented with a reference, you change the topic.

What Bryan said it factual.

@TrollDecker @Gargron @mcscx @BryanLunduke

I've never been called a "tit" before. Is that an insult? Is that an argument? Not particularly good at either.

@BryanLunduke @mcscx @Gargron @sillystring Don't bother wasting your time with an answer. I have no time for frogfuckers.

@sillystring @BryanLunduke @mcscx @Gargron No, factual would be saying "The DHS has said that antifa is a domestic terrorist organisation", the words used in this case were "antifa is a domestic terrorist organisation"

There's a difference

@sillystring @BryanLunduke @mcscx Factually, I did not claim that Bryan "said something wrong". What I did was *exclaim* "what the" at the framing of it.

@mcscx @BryanLunduke @sillystring Antifa is worth supporting - good on them, and good on Mozilla. I applaud their decision.

@gargron @mcscx @bryanlunduke @sillystring
@mangeurdenuage @dirb @moonman @1iceloops123

TL;DR:

antifa is an organisation that perpetrates political violence and performs acts of terrorism.

riseup.net is a bunch of people with an anti-capitalist agenda who want to get people off Facebook. They're like @hannes2peer and @mmn , just bigger and more organized.

If you want to support a network service provider who supports antifa, support mayfirst.org instead.

Two things:

1) There is excellent left-wing criticism of antifa and their methods. I suggest you read it:

https://social.heldscal.la/url/836983

https://riseuptimes.org/2017/08/31/chris-hedges-how-antifa-mirrors-the-alt-right/

https://social.heldscal.la/url/743893

Political violence, attacking civilian targets to promote a political agenda and suppress the politics of others, is by definition terrorism.

2) riseup.net is *not* antifa. (also riseuptimes.org linked above is, to my knowledge, not riseup.net)

The direct connection between antifa and riseup.net is a meme mainly coming from one article by two kekistani alt-right guys, who present some flimsy evidence for it.

Even that Counterpunch article by Anthony DiMaggio got it wrong initially, so your confusion and the confusion of that steemit post is understandable.

riseup.net is an anarchist (Bakunin sense) and therefore anti-capitalist collective that provides anonymous and/or decentralized services to left-wing activists as an alternative to corporate network services. It is a fact that many antifa people use their services, and it's possible that riseup.net agrees with that use, or otherwise that it would be riseup.net's best interest to take a stance against such groups to clarify things, but I see no statements on the riseup.net site to indicate that they endorse political violence.

I'm sure there are antifa people on quitter.se and social.umeahackerspace.se too, that doesn't mean those servers and their admins support political violence.

Now, if you want to bring up a similar example of a network service provider that actually officially supports antifa tactics and therefore political violence, that would be mayfirst.org who express explicit support for Autonome Antifa Freiburg, autonome-antifa.org , who advocate e.g. violence against the police.

@Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring "antifa is worth supporting". This. This is actually why mastodon will never be broadly used. How I'm gonna convince my right-leaning and liberal friends to use a social network run by a guy who allegedly supports antifascism?

@Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring @gabriele
because it's pointless to develope free software if society can't be free.
#Fascism is based on opression. Anti-fascism is about to counter this opression.

I mean what are you doing here in #mastodon if you're not in favour of free software and free society?

@paulfree14 @Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring I'm all-in for free software, everything I use and develop is free software, and I even donate a substantial amount of my salary to various free software projects. That said, it's clear you don't know what #fascism is. I'll give you an hint: it'based on radical socialism (NOT oppression).

@Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring @gabriele
so you're implying that fascism is about liberating?
If it's not about liberating why is it not about oppression then?

@Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring @gabriele
also #anarchy can be seen as radical socialism.
Why is fascism then so strongly conflicting with anarchists who are all for liberating.

@paulfree14 @Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring Easy. Because the main point of divergence between #anarchy and #fascism is too big. One it's for abolition of central authority, the other is for central authority.

What mental gymnastics people have to do to make excuses for fascists I will never understand.

@paulfree14 @Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring @gabriele

@gabriele @sillystring @BryanLunduke @Gargron @paulfree14
Like wtf has happened to a world where so many people look back on fascism and are like "that, that's what this world is missing, that's the answer"

@gabriele @sillystring @BryanLunduke @Gargron @paulfree14

*minecraft is supported by a fascist*

pseudo-leftist: this is fine

*firefox is supported by an anti-fascist*

pseudo-leftist: oh no, how will we convince the liberals and right-wingers to use our software now?

@paulfree14 @BryanLunduke @sillystring Can someone explain to @gabriele Mastodon and Fediverse are not "run" by @Gargron? He did create the Mastodon software, but a). #Fediverse was there long before; b). instances are run by different people with different views.

I mean, it's like saying "How will I convince people to use computers if Windows was created by Bill gates". Doesn't make any sense.

Your friends are welcome, in fact *encouraged* to use a different instance than mastodon.social.

@gabriele @BryanLunduke @sillystring Look, I dunno why you even have to put "allegedly" here, when I am outspokenly anti-fascist. I'm Jewish. It's in my history, too. Frankly, if someone has a problem with being against fascism, I won't be sad about them not coming here.

@gabriele @BryanLunduke @sillystring I'm fine with an echo chamber constituted by the lowest common denominator of a tolerant society

But also - why do you need me to be an agreeable figure for your right-leaning friends? I'm hardly a public person and have no influence over the network beyond my own mastodon.social. That's what I don't get.

@Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring
Tolerant society which doesn't allow true free of speech and bans "wrong" ideas? And don't tell me that you can't tolerate who is against tolerance in the first place, because true fascism it's really not about oppression. The 1919 manifesto of italian fascists preached universal suffrage, minimum wage, socialization of economy; are any of those absolutely wrong ideas?

@sillystring @BryanLunduke @Gargron
But maybe you are right. You're not a really public person, my original claim is a bit exagerated.

fascism sympaziser Show more

fascism sympaziser Show more

fascism sympaziser Show more

@Gargron @gabriele @BryanLunduke @sillystring

May I suggest that there's a distinction to be made here between the organization and its cause?

I don't think we're discussing whether fascism is acceptable or not, but rather the manner in which we should display our distaste for it.

Terrorists are just the freedom fighters of the opposing side.. and those who harm innocents to make a statement and/or incite fear.

@sillystring @BryanLunduke @gabriele @Gargron

Nevermind. I guess some people here are arguing about whether fascism is ok or not.

@sudoreboot @BryanLunduke @gabriele @Gargron

I live in the US and almost every person I've met is anti-facist and anti-communist. It is our default stance.

@sillystring @BryanLunduke @gabriele @Gargron

The biggest problem about these discussions and opinions is that people aren't talking about the philosophies, but always about the various implementations throughout history.

@sudoreboot @sillystring @BryanLunduke @Gargron Untrue, I tried multpile times to bring up what's the core philosophy of fascism, as described in 1919 manifesto, and how it really shouldn't be so controversial. At all.

@Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring @sudoreboot

Anyway, you are right, this discussion shouldn't be whether fascism or terrorism is ok or not, but if a big american company as Mozilla should indirectly (but willingly ? we don't know) support a terrorist and controversial "group" as Antifa.

I think that probably they shouldn't do this, and it's really not about Antifa, it's about supporting a terrorist group being bad for their public image.

@gabriele @Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring

Without involving the term "terrorist", I agree that *directly* supporting a political activist group with a history of violent displays is not advisable.

*Indirectly* is more difficult to condemn, because you can't know their intention for sure. You can indirectly cause incredible damage contributing to a good cause and vice versa.

@gabriele @sillystring @BryanLunduke @Gargron

"always" was a poor choice of word on my part. But even if one tries to discuss the core elements it quickly devolves into shit-slinging because someone feels personally offended at the mention of a term with historical connotations.

See the above discussion for example. Someone mentions AntiFa and suddenly half of the participants in the discussion are alleged fascists and the other half alleged stalinists.

@gabriele @Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring are you really saying “my friends won’t use this platform because the developer is against fascism”

is that genuinely the position you’re taking, that your friends believe being against fascism is bad

@gabriele @Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring well, a main selling point of alternative social networks like this is "there are no fascists on it and the developers are against fascism"

So I suppose this does pose a problem for you.

@nev @Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring Really? I thought the main selling point of Mastodon was to be a good looking implementation of GNU social, with all the good things that come with that: being decentralyzed, federated, free speech enabling and not run by greedy corporations.

I really couldn't care less about the presence of fascist, antifascist or <insert random label>. That's really the last of my concerns.

@gabriele @Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring To be clear, fascism is not entirely compatible with those principles. While the phrase has become a far-right rallying cry, historically fascists have not been particularly favourable towards "free speech".

@nev @Gargron @BryanLunduke @sillystring

To some extent it's true. While the political philosophy of fascism isn't against free speech, it's historical implementation and the practice of "squadrismo" certainly limited and oppressed political adversaries.

@gabriele WTF dude nobody WANTS your right wing shitheads on hwre. This is just how Mastodon is supposed to work. I applaud @gargron for making such a clear statement. It shows that Mastodon is indeed much better than Twitter - assholes who support fascism (because that's what you do when you are against Anrifa) should not feel welcome here, or anywhere! @BryanLunduke @sillystring

@natanji @gabriele @Gargron @BryanLunduke

Like the majority of #Americans I find #antifa and #racists to often be violent extremists. We have all seen the videos of late.

There are valid #nonprofits that have been working against racism in the US. That IMHO is what is really going on, American racism not Italian #fascism.

Put down your pink baton and shield. Consider supporting somebody on the good side. For example splcenter.org

@BryanLunduke @gabriele @natanji

Also we're just chatting online. No need to use vulgar insults and say people are not welcome on the platform. Makes you look like an extremist and doesn't help.

@sillystring I don't have a problem with nazi punching. I don't have a problem with using violence to protect marginalized people in a country where the police is regularly on the oppressor's side and can't be trusted. Antifa wouldn't need to exist if the non-violent ways to exterminate fascist ideology acrually *worked*, if nazi ideology was properly repressed, if people wearing swastikas would be seen as enemies of the people and get locked up immediately.

@sillystring @BryanLunduke @mcscx @Gargron It's a true statement that Nicole cheated on her husband, beloved athletic hero and comedian, Orenthal James Simpson.

@sillystring @BryanLunduke @mcscx @Gargron Factual tidbits of information aren't necessarily true if they're missing crucial context.

@Gargron @mcscx @BryanLunduke @sillystring Hard to say a USA organization is "infiltrated" by white supremacists when the USA was founded by white supremacists.

@troubleMoney @Gargron @mcscx @BryanLunduke

That is a shockingly shallow argument. Antifa IS classified as a domestic terrorist group. It DOESN"T matter what you think. Bryan isn't reporting on what you think. He is reporting facts.

@sillystring @BryanLunduke @mcscx @Gargron The facts in this case are being reported in a potentially misleading fashion

That's the problem we have with it

@sillystring @Gargron @BryanLunduke The government, which is fully fascist, classifies something that every living human being should be (anti-fascist) as terroristic action

I think for most people who know that fascism is bad, the original "what the" is perfectly explanatory

@Gargron @mcscx It seems that @BryanLunduke has lots of followers that follow one account and that never tooted...

@BryanLunduke Complex thing Mozilla. They are going through a schyzophrenic phase, moving into adware, and funding antifa at the same time.

It doesn't make much sense.

@BryanLunduke that was disappointing to see, all those youtube comments about antifa.

anyway, it's a good thing RiseUp is finally getting more funding to the tune of $100,000 they've got really good software and it's nice for leftists to have a good platform to use.

@jeff @nepfag @moonman  @lain @thatbrickster This is bad.  The ONE browser that everyone knows about that actually gives half a damn about FOSS principles is doing shit like this. We cannot have this.
@dolus @nepfag @moonman @lain @thatbrickster it's too late, this is the future you chose, brave is the last hope but really the w3c fucked the web over long ago.
@jeff @nepfag @moonman @lain @thatbrickster I didn't choose jack shit here. I used FF because it was marginally less unethical than tan the alternatives. No I have to reconsider what the lesser evil is.
@dolus @nepfag @moonman @lain @thatbrickster you didn't chose to get buttfucked but you're still getting buttfucked.
@jeff @nepfag @moonman @lain @thatbrickster Watch it! You don't say that sort of thing to a top.
@dolus @hope @moonman @nepfag @bryanlunduke @lain @thatbrickster I personally can't imagine that Bricky will like this. That, or he will laugh it off.
@sim @thatbrickster He's got one doozy of a choice to make when he finds out.
@dolus @thatbrickster We've already considered moving after some issues before, but as long as this doesn't impact the software... like they keep the politics and software separate then he'd continue. Personally, I'm just waiting for a better browser that works to come along, that respects freedoms... and I'll switch to that. I have no loyalty to mozilla after the crap they are pulling these days. Why do these companies keep dragging themselves to low pits?
@sim @thatbrickster Give Qupzilla a try. It's now an official KDE project too.
@sim @thatbrickster A few things:

1) It'll get rebranded soon
2) It will have the support of the KDE community to some extent
3) It will be brought more in-line with Plasma 5's design
@dolus @thatbrickster Hmm... cheers. I'll wait to hear what Bricky thinks about it, or at least wait for tomorrow before looking into anything.
@sim @thatbrickster I cannot wait to hear what he thinks about all this, considering how happy he was about Quantum. Not that I'm saying I'll enjoy is disappointment, just to get his hot take on the situation.
@dolus @thatbrickster Yeah. I'll probably defer to him because I haven't gotten a clue what all this means with browsers. I used to use chrome as a normie, and then moved to Firefox because I think dt recommended it when I switched over to Manjaro and switched to more free software stuff.

I'll be pretty satisfied if the company doesn't pull similar stunts as Mozilla, and if the browser works without being slow and I can do fun things like block ads and javascript.
@sim @thatbrickster I'll be trying out the other FOSS browsers to see if they've improved at all. I really could have done never hearing about this. https://gs.smuglo.li/attachment/867879 https://gs.smuglo.li/attachment/867880 https://gs.smuglo.li/attachment/867881
@dolus @thatbrickster Oh, I'll bet! I hope one has improved a lot. I think Bricky has been keeping his eyes on some.
@sim @thatbrickster I can already tell Qupzilla is the fastest out of the three.
@dolus @thatbrickster Ooh... probably the one then. What add-ons does it have?
@sim @thatbrickster And there-in lies the main problem with every other FOSS browser besides FF. There aren't that many. You get the basics like ad blockers, grease monkey, cookie managers and the like. But it's a bit threadbare in that department, no question.  https://gs.smuglo.li/attachment/867911
@dolus @thatbrickster RIP. This is certainly a main problem with it for me. Where FF excels... but even there I worry with their new design. Lol.
@sim @thatbrickster Well, to be fair, FF was going to break most extensions soon anyway.
@dolus @thatbrickster Yeah... that's what I meant. They had a good thing going... then they decided to break it. Lol.
@sim @thatbrickster You have to break shit at some point. FireFox was so much slower than Chrome for a reason.
@dolus @thatbrickster True. I remember being told this, but still... I will not be pleased if the extensions I use are broken.
@sim @dolus @thatbrickster
>Why do these companies keep dragging themselves to low pits?
Because they're leftists.
@dt @sim @thatbrickster Worse, they're fucking regressive leftists.
@dolus Riseup seems to be an OK service, but I don't see why mozilla should support it.

@BryanLunduke Right-wing clickbait nonsense. Riseup is used by many groups and individuals for many different purposes; it distinguishes itself primarily by being usable anonymously. Singling out "antifa" is bait for people who have been riled up by right-wing media. This is obvious and is being pointed out to you repeatedly, but you insist on being in the right. Unfollowed, maybe try gab.ai for this kind of crap?

@eloquence I am not right wing. I am not any... wing. Disprove the facts in the video or don't. Up to you. But attacking people and belittling them, individually, is usually the tactic employed by those with a known losing argument.

@BryanLunduke You may or may not be, but you are baiting right-wing folks for clicks with a nonsense headline that appeals to sentiments whipped up by right-wing media. That's a fact.

@eloquence @BryanLunduke I hope you don't regret dipping your toe in politics. As vile as it makes people its still worth talking about.

@henk717 @eloquence Hey, thanks! I'm honestly mostly focused on the impact on the Tech / Free Software world with all of this. It's bound to hit up against politics from time to time. :)

@henk717 @eloquence @BryanLunduke
the impact of tech/free software depends much on the social circumstances around it.
Fascists are rising in US and in all of europe. If you turn a blind eye on that, and even repeat the narratives of far-right you have choosen a political position.

@eloquence @BryanLunduke Factually reporting and asking for comment is good journalism and should be applauded. All of you hurling insults should look in the mirror. Honest people can disagree. Stop acting like twitter users.

@eloquence @BryanLunduke

in this toot your you play the double standart fallacy.
- you feel personal attacked
- you tell the person to stay on the facts
- you shape a sentence wanting to claim their argument is unvalid cause of it's form without to disprove the facts, and attack back

@BryanLunduke After watching this video and reading some other's toots about it, I just wanted to say that I think you're absolutely right. Weather or not you agree with what Antifa or even Riseup as a whole is about, I think, objectively, Mozilla should really not have their fingers in this one. If Riseup or Mozilla was willing to talk to you about it and clarify their positions, that would be one thing, but their silence is very telling. Ignore your detractors and keep pursuing this story.

@ColtonDRG
wait, does this mean I can just talk made up bullshit about you if you don't answer my questions within a timeframe I set up?

@paulfree14 If I was performing suspicious activities and you were trying to get my attention by making a big deal out of it, sure, but I'm not one to ignore emails about serious issues. :)

@ColtonDRG bryan was performing suspicious activity through spreading false informations.

@paulfree14 @coltondrg I've unsubscribed from him for now. Maybe I'll resubscribe at some later time.

If it looks like someone is getting too famous, occupying too many posts and causing too much scandal then it may be a good idea to not give them so much attention. imho cultures of celebrity are the polar opposite of real community.
@bob @paulfree14 I like Bryan.  He seems a decent guy even if he's wrong sometimes, but he seems to be getting a bit big headed lately.  Even if he's 100% right about Antifa or Rise Up he's not done the work to back up his claims

@maiyannah @paulfree14 @bob the "EFF Resigns from W3C = Good, I join the W3C = Good" double standard was also a "big-headedness" red flag for me.

@paulfree14 I don't think that's true. I suppose he did make the title of the video a bit inflammatory, but I cannot defend the actions of Antifa, and Riseup is clearly linked to Antifa. Even if Mozilla wants to claim that their support of Riseup has nothing to do with their connection to Antifa, they cannot ignore his emails for DAYS, it makes it all look real suspicious.

@ColtonDRG no, he just spreads false informations.
And it's just one click away to know it riseup.net/en

...lol, shure they can ignore his e-mail. If some random person asks me about an interview, without bodering to make any research in advance shure I ignore it when I have 100s of other e-mails comming in.

@paulfree14 @coltondrg in an earlier post I suggested he try to contact someone, but upon reflection if I was running RiseUp and I received an email saying "I think you're a terrorist organization. Care to comment?" then I don't think I'd bother to reply either.

@bob @ColtonDRG
the point is he could also just used it by himself. Cause riseup powers also service where you don't need an invite code.
You just register and that's it.

@BryanLunduke I suspect this is the terrorist organisation you are looking for.

riseuplabs.org/

All FOSS, usable by "ists" of all creeds.

Note their charitable status.

Don't worry about not getting an answer to your mails, they probably just asked themselves "Bryan who?" ; )

@StuC @BryanLunduke Bryan discredited himself with this ugly Propaganda

@stuc @bryanlunduke RiseUp don't reply to almost anyone's emails. Too busy keeping a massive all-volunteer hosting infrastructure running

@BryanLunduke Banter!
«I hear you're a NAZI now father Bryan»! LOL (see Father Ted)
Seriously, anyone using RiseUp, a US based service, for 'radical' activities, is naïve at best. And where does get all this money to throw about anyway?!
I certain more terrorists use GMail et al than RiseUp.
And a hell of a lot more people use RiseUp than just the angry brigade..

@BryanLunduke a number of things first antifa is not an organization it is a network of people, federated, of anti fascists activists fighting against nazis and white supremacy. You took a by line from the dhs on what it is. Research Antifa first.

RiseUp has been around for a long time and do more than email and have various radical left folks. You did the least amount of work to come to your conclusions. You are indirectly supporting white supremacy at least and nazis at most.

@BryanLunduke for someone who likes spreading unfounded bullshit around you sure have no tolerance for criticism mstdn.omaera.org/media/cDzlrVo

@BryanLunduke i'm disappointed bryan

this is terrible and you will never know how terrible it is until your friends gets killed for some of these ideas and you'll have never listened to them

and on that day i hope you'll fucking feel bad

i am one of those people that would have liked you if you didn't represent a very real danger you didn't even bother to understand

@BryanLunduke there's literally a comment calling an organization whose sole purpose is to deny rights to non-heterosexual people, "pro-family".

95 upvotes.
i think that speaks *a lot* of how fucked up things are right in front of you.

do you have any idea what it is to be told that you, asking to have an official relationship like everyone else, is "against families" and forbidden by law?

People get destroyed for this every day. I know some of those people. It hurts like nothing else could.

@BryanLunduke Now it is the time for all brave folk to start using Mozilla? I will dip a toe in that water. I really like all the work they are doing toward browser privacy. Just worry I don't know enough to really speak with intelligence, so lots of grains of salt folk.

If it is politically difficult for Mozilla to fund free-speech projects used by (among others) networks of anti-fascists, it may be time for Mozilla to get out of the US.

Should they also refuse to fund free-speech projects used by pro-democracy networks that China classifies as terrorist?

Just the other day you complained about shutting down of services coz Spain declared them illegal.

@BryanLunduke : "Mozilla (maker of Firefox) gives $100,000 to fund Antifa email"

youtube.com/watch?v=KPgyTzqDJh

@BryanLunduke You do good work, Sir. It's troubling that Mozilla would support antifa(directly or indirectly), an organization that espouses antifascist and anticapitalist ideals yet uses tactics of which Hitler's brown shirts would be proud. If this is all true, Mozilla should divest of riseup, come clean and apologize. Rogue violence is not the answer.

@BryanLunduke @DistroJunkie
1. #fascism under hitler was murdering anti-fascist
2. you support antifa and anticapitalist values by using mastodon.
3. Bryan had no idea what he was talking about....just read the thread, his stating it by himself

@BryanLunduke @paulfree14
1. Hitler was a fascist and used the brown shirts to attack those that disagreed with him. Then when it became politically expedient he had them slaughtered.

2. Since when is Mastadon an antifa organization?

3. He's spot on otherwise the subjects would be responding and the hornet's nest would not be stirred.

@paulfree14 From my experience mastodon is mostly LGBT, tech and shit-posting central. I don't see much antifa.

@BryanLunduke @paulfree14 Mozilla just needs to stop this, stick to their primary mission and this will go away.

@BryanLunduke saying that support for riseup is support for antifa is like saying support for tor is support for terrorists or pedophiles.
I know people in the US are basically loosing their shit over everything lately and outrage is modern as fuck, but how is this productive?
You are holding mozilla accountable on behalf of riseup and riseup themselves accountable on behalf of their users. By analogy every contribution to the FSF is a contribution to software that is used by antifa or fascists.

@BryanLunduke Furthermore, me giving you money to give money to the W3C to join them is essentially monetarily supporting an organization that wishes to standardize DRM.
The insane strive for perfect, in-depth, detailed ideological purity and lack of nuance towards people, organizations and ideas is pretty much the fucked up part of society today.
Anonymity services are there for people to use. Taking them away form the bad means also taking them away from the good.

Mischaracterization of Riseup Show more

@BryanLunduke This was probably the most important video I watched recently.. I hope that didn't knowingly fund such an organization.. 😒

@BryanLunduke @AvnSgt
read the thread Bryan had no idea what he was talking about

Thank you. However, my toot was directed at @BryanLunduke and the content he produces. It didn't warrant a response from you, @paulfree14, as I didn't ask to be told what to do, or how to think. That is for Lemmings, and, I do not behave as such.

Again, Bryan, I stand by my original toot😉 *edited to correct double negative.

@BryanLunduke Antifa is a banner in somewhat the same manner Anonymous is. Anyone who do no like fascists can use that banner. They are no terrorists. Unless you are a fascist that will say.

The only ones who support you seems to have fascist leanings... or at least alt-right. That is not a good position.

You got baited and swallowed it whole... I hope you are able to see through all this and correct your stance.

@shellkr It appears, from here, quite the opposite.

The US government have declared Antifa "terrorists". That's a fact that's easy to prove with a quick online search and that's how I stated it in the video.

MOST people seem to support the facts I laid out. Roughly 4 to 1 on the video "likes".

I have, however, already received threats of violence from people demanding I take the video down. So. There's that.

@BryanLunduke @shellkr
you repeat that you prove your arguments with facts.

Your an Untermensch, also fact by some fascist officials. Doesn't makes it valid.

I have outlined that you don't speak after facts but spreading fascist propaganda.
Rather then calling me a lying and sayn you stay on the facts while impling I don't, you could try to depunk my arguments with facts.

todon.nl/@paulfree14/1174705

@paulfree14 @shellkr

Ugh. Again?

You haven't made any counter-arguments to the facts I presented. You've talked about un-related (or tangentially related) topics. There's nothing for me to argue against (other than the character assassination you partake in... which has already been debunked).

Go away or some up with something useful, factual and interesting.

@BryanLunduke @shellkr @paulfree14 if these people
rub you the wrong way, join the GNU Social Axis, we have cookies and funposting cc @moonman @nepfag

@BryanLunduke @shellkr
no I DID. You presented that you aren't spreading a fascist propaganda message.
I've made a counter argument to this, and all you did is playn the douple standart fallacy.

@BryanLunduke Yes, but you are smarter than that. If you don't like fascists you are Antifa... and I guess you would not call yourself a terrorist. That Trump try to prohibit anti-fascism is no surprise. Which is the whole reason why Antifa was put up on the terrorist list. I know you are not this naive.

I didn't like it.. but I didn't vote "dislike" on it. That is a very bad measurement. How many percent did vote of the viewers?

Don't take it down.. just add some context (corrections).

@bryanlunduke let's say a Chinese group were declared "domestic terrorists" by the Chinese state...
@bryanlunduke Do you think that an activist email provider should arbitrarily withdraw services from them on that basis?
@bryanlunduke ...or hand over their emails so the state can investigate them? Or should they protect their privacy?
http://qttr.at/1ywo

@strypey My stance on this would be simple... Mozilla shouldn't give $100,000 to them.

@bryanlunduke can I suggest you have a chat to someone from Amnesty International about the ethics of that stance?
@bryanlunduke should Mozilla give $100,000 to the developers of Tails?
http://qttr.at/ecs
@bryanlunduke do you think Mozilla should never give money to #LibrePlanet because they platformed #EdwardSnowden, an enemy of the US state?
@bryanlunduke do you think Mozilla shouldn't give money to TOR, because I guarantee you some #Antifa activists use that too.

@strypey
He just doesn't respond to any of those arguments.
Every argument which is seriously questionizing him he ignores, while stateing if someone has a good argument why I'm false I will correct my standpoint.
That's not true.
Also his video where he talks about his politic views he's sayn I'm not alt-right or alt-left.
From what I know both was shaped from fascists, which would give some more insights through what sources he get's influenced.

@paulfree14 that @bryanlunduke is politically neutral, and perhaps under-informed, is hard to swallow if he won't debate in good faith

@BryanLunduke @shellkr The US government also thinks backdoor-less encryption is irresponsible

@bryanlunduke @shellkr did you know the US state have also called the rainbow family of love and light "terrorists"?
http://qttr.at/1ywq
@bryanlunduke @shellkr "terrorist" is often used as an empty smear by elites whose power is being questioned or challenged in any way
@bryanlunduke I'm not griefing you here. I think these are serious issues, and I'd like to debate them with you in good faith.

@BryanLunduke I honestly don't understand why Mozilla would give funding to riseup (as they just seem to run services without providing any technical advances for the broader FOSS community). So yes I think this is a political action and they should be called out for it. BUT still your video misses the point completely. You went from "Mozilla supports a anti-capitalist platform" to "Mozilla supports Terrorists (min. 10:22)" just because some site listed antifa organisations that use riseup.

@BryanLunduke Just because the service is leftleaning doesn't mean they support actions of the antifa. No offense but that's just bad journalism on "the sun" niveau. You can do better than that.

@BryanLunduke Correction on my part: It seams like riseup actually develops own solutions as well: riseuplabs.org/
So Mozilla funding them out of a plain technological view might make sense now. Software isn't political.

@BryanLunduke i know people have attacked you on this. Which sucks, but i gotta ask. Any update?

@BryanLunduke
Now I see why Brendan Eich had to step down as CEO at Mozilla, after his private money donation for California's Prop. 8.
I stopped using their "anti-free-speech" software, but after few years I thought, maybe something had changed. But it hadn't.
Why companies have to be part of political conflicts, instead just making good products for everyone?
Maybe RiseUp will release their secure email system as open source?
Who else can create modern, advanced, FOSS internet browser?