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What is wrong with South Africa? They are, literally, out of water. Cape Town, which will be out of drinkable water "within weeks", launches protests when Israeli's offer help.

They would, literally, rather die of lack of water than let Jews help them.

There is the issue of #Apartheid. It may be the case that a country that only recently eliminated its policy of apartheid accepting the help of another country that's openly practising apartheid by colonialists against an indigenous population in violation of the 4th Geneva Convention and the UN Declaration of Human Rights is a worse ethical choice than running out of water.

@bobjonkmangreen Israel is *not* practicing apartheid. Also the *vast* majority of those that currently live in both the West Bank and Gaza are *not* indigenous (unless you count the huge numbers that were shipped ther by Jordan).

Making those sorts of statements suggests you support the stated goal of the Palestinian government -- the complete eradication of the Jews. I suggest stating otherwise if that's not the case.

The government of Israel is occupying and settling territory that was set aside for Palestinians displaced by the creation of Israel in 1948. Palestinians are not allowed to use roads set aside for Israelis. A wall has been erected, not to keep Israelis out of the Palestinian territories, but to keep the Palestinians out of Israel. Palestinian olive groves are demolished for Israeli settlement areas. Palestinian homes are destroyed as collective punishment.

@bobjonkmangreen There are at least 3 innacuracies in that statement.

Before we can continue with a discussion, I need an answer to a simple question:

Do you condemn the Palestinian government's goal of the death of all Jews -- and do you support the right of Israel to exist and to defend its people from violence?

I need a direct answer to that. Otherwise we cannot continue having any sort of meaningful discussion.

By making that demand we've already lost any hope of meaningful discussion.
Bryan Lunduke @BryanLunduke

@bobjonkmangreen So you support the goal of the eradication of the Jewish people and/or feel that Israel has no right to defend itself.

Your stance is noted. This is really pretty doggone simple.

I specifically did not say that. Please don't put words in my mouth.


Here, watch this:

I condemn the Palestinian governments stated goal to eradicate the Jews.

Easy. Now, your turn.

@BryanLunduke @bobjonkmangreen With all respect, it's not /exactly/ that simple. I can understand why people might be reticent to say carte blanche that they support a nation's right to defend itself. In principle I think the US has a right to defend itself. I live there. It would be stupid of me not to. However, that doesn't mean I think the US has a right to do all the things it does /in the name/ of defending itself (say, the Iraq War or the number of people it keeps in detention in ICE.)

@bobjonkmangreen @BryanLunduke Similarly, I think the State of Israel should, in general, defend its people. However, I think many of the ways the Likud party pursues that goal are ineffective or, in some cases, directly undermine the goal and export more suffering than could be justified by the amount of actual safety they provide.

@Azure @bobjonkmangreen @BryanLunduke

The fact that Israel was created in the first place is kinda weird.

It's been a while since I've studied the histories, I probably shouldn't comment too far, but it did seem like a move designed to perpetuate war, from what I remember.